Monday
Jul122010
Salsa Cycles Vaya: Guest Review
Monday, July 12, 2010 at 5:47AM Gravel Grinder Gear: Salsa Cycles Vaya
Editor's Note: This review also appears on Gravel Grinder News
The Cyclist would like to welcome Salsa Cycles sponsored rider, Matt Gersib to the site. Matt has been a top flite mountain bike racer for 20 plus years and has worked in the cycling industry as well for many of those years. Matt now is employed by Snitly Carr as a Public Relations Manager, but still finds plenty of time to ride and race his Salsa bicycles often. Matt makes his home in Lincoln, Nebraska with his wife, and if he's not at work, he's probably out riding gravel somewhere in and around Lincoln. Here's Matt's take on the Salsa Cycles Vaya..........
Six Months on the Salsa’s All-Road Adventurer, the Vaya: by Matt Gersib
The recent growth in the popularity of gravel grinder events and bikepacking trips has spurred an evolution in the bicycles and equipment cyclists have at their disposal for such adventures. Never before have so many great options existed for pedaling to remote places, whether on roads or trails. Today, it’s possible to find a drop bar long-haul adventure/touring bike that’s well-suited for whatever type of route you’re looking to conquer, whether roads or trails.
This image shows the Vaya's low bottom bracket well. A full 75mm of drop combines with generous 450mm long chainstays to give the Vaya great stability and ride quality over bumps and potholes, with awesome tracking in corners and great tire clearance too. Compared to Salsa's 'cross racing frames, the Vaya sports 25mm longer chainstays. Nice...
The great news is that the Vaya and Fargo are both two of my favorite bikes, so it’s tough to go wrong with either. The Vaya’s frame, built from Salsa’s proprietary “Classico” steel tubing, is an example of how well the company understands how to make a great riding steel frame. Smooth is the characteristic defines the Vaya’s ride over choppy roads and the frame and fork’s stability in challenging conditions inspires confidence at all times. The long fork offset, 71.5 degree headtube angle (on my 57cm frame) and low bottom bracket (75mm drop) all contribute to the stability and solid handling of the Vaya. This is a bike you can literally ride with no hands on choppy roads!
Since I received my Vaya as a frameset and built it up from a mixture of new and old parts, my build has no reflection on the “stock” build available from Salsa, so I won’t go into the specifics of the performance of my groupset performance. However, I will call out a few notable new components that I used in my build. First is the new iteration of WTB’s venerable Ti-railed SST saddle. This is my first experience with the newly re-released classic, and it’s every bit as good as the original. For WTB saddle lovers, these are good days. Heck, I say buy two! Keep a spare new in the box, just in case WTB stops making them again.
The Salsa Delgado Cross rims are the perfect choice for the Vaya, and that’s what I laced up for mine. I’ve had the opportunity to try a few different tires on them now and have come to appreciate their strength, simplicity and consistency in build-up. These are good, nice looking rims and they don’t cost an arm and a leg. Very nice…
The Salsa Woodchipper handlebar is quickly becoming a classic among the gravel grinder crowd, and for good reason. Good reach/drop and a nice, wide flare give it great leverage in the drops — perfect for climbing and descending sketchy gravel roads. It’s strong enough for full-on off-road use too, so you can run it on the Fargo too with no worries. Game on!! I love it – especially the 46cm version.
So, in my “perfect world,” would I change anything on the Vaya? That’s a tough question, because I think any changes to improve the bike in one area or another would detract from the bike in a different area. So no, I really wouldn’t change a thing. And from the others I’ve spoken to who own Vayas, the consensus is that it’s a superb riding, excellent handling bicycle, and a great value too. It breaks free from the cyclocross racing bike geometry mold and charts its own course as a true all-road adventure bike. That’s an exciting development for a cyclist like me.
If you’re interested in buying a Vaya in 2010, my advice is to buy it quick. From what I’ve heard from a couple of local Salsa dealers, it doesn’t sound like the supply of 2010 models will hold up through the year, as it’s been a very popular model for Salsa Cycles. Given my experience with the bike, I can’t say I’m surprised.
I received my Vaya through my sponsorship as a 2010 Salsa sponsored rider, but I have not been compensated for my review and the opinions I’ve expressed are solely my own. You can reach me at dirtstories@gmail.com with any comments or follow-up questions.
A number of companies offer such bicycles, but one company stands at the forefront of the genre — Salsa Cycles. It offers several models that are well suited to various touring duties, from touring on paved roads and paths (the Casseroll), to gravel and dirt road adventures (the Vaya), to full-on off-road adventure touring (the Fargo). And while each of Salsa’s touring bikes has its own unique virtues, the focus of this test is the Vaya, the company’s latest addition to the line.
The Vaya draws its lineage from a number of past and current Salsa models. It slots into Salsa’s line up in the spot formerly occupied by the highly acclaimed disc brake, steel La Cruz model (not to be confused with the current titanium version of the La Cruz). And in many ways the Vaya is more of the bike I was hoping the La Cruz would have been. For while I always loved my La Cruz, its ‘cross bike geometry was undeniable and its tire clearance more limited than what I wanted in my “ideal” gravel frame. In the Vaya, Salsa addressed both of these areas effectively.
The Vaya was a huge risk for Salsa. They already had a winning, in fact some would say, category defining, off-road adventure bike, in the Fargo. So why would they go back and re-jigger their (already great selling) disc brake 'crosser, the steel La Cruz to more directly compete with the Fargo on the sales floor? Because they ride, and they saw the opportunity to build a bike that more precisely fit the type of riding they and the riders they associated with were doing. I think it's brilliant and it works. And honestly, for me, while I didn't want to have both a steel La Cruz and a Fargo, I'm stoked to have both a Vaya and a Fargo, because they complement each other very well. So in my opinion, if you can swing it financially, they're the perfect pair. Otherwise, you have to choose your weapon and pull the trigger.
Even with 40c Schwalbe Marathon Extreme tires mounted, the Vaya has plenty of clearance. For riders primarily interested in running 35-40c tires, the Vaya offers a more compliant ride than Salsa's more off-road biased Fargo model due to a lighter gauge tubeset tuned for more road-based adventures, whether paved or gravel.
The Vaya can handle rough roads and an occasional singletrack foray. It has the fork/stay clearance to handle up to 45c Panaracer Fire ‘Cross or Bontrager XR1 Team 1.9 sneakers, but its sweet spot is running 40 to 45c semi-slick or low-knob tires and using the compliance of the sweet steel frame and robust tires to make quick work of whatever road you choose. That makes it the perfect choice for a long ride/race like the Dirty Kanza 200 mile gravel grinder or a multi-day loaded tour on mixed surfaces. It can also just as easily pull daily duty as a comfortable, reliable daily commuter bike that’ll deftly haul your gear to and from work. Plus, with threaded rack and fender mounts included front and rear, versatility is the name of the game with the Vaya. Thanks Salsa!
Since I own both a Vaya and a Fargo, I’ve had a lot of folks approach me asking which bike they should buy for themselves. In all honesty, this is a pretty simple question to answer, because for me it all boils down to where they’re primarily planning on riding the bike. You see, the Fargo is a 29er… a mountain bike. It’s meant to be ridden on trails. So if they’re interested in a drop bar mountain bike, I recommend they buy a Fargo. But if they’re interested in primarily riding gravel roads, especially if they want to ride with other people, and particularly if they want to do it going fast, the Vaya is definitely the bike to choose. For the most part I’ve found this to hold true for most riders with just a few exceptions. A couple of folks that I thought would go with a Vaya ended up on the Fargo because they wanted the ability to run fatter tires at some point, even though they primarily wanted to ride gravel. Cool… A couple of other riders decided on the Vaya, even though they planned to run the fattest tires they could run in the frame most of the time, simply because they wanted the lighter, more compliant ride of the Vaya frame. Again, a good choice, especially if they didn’t intend to tour off-road extensively. But those riders had specific visions of what they wanted, and could only have one bike to fulfill their intended roles. When you buy, you’ll have to decide what kind of riding matters the most to you and make the call for yourself.
The great news is that the Vaya and Fargo are both two of my favorite bikes, so it’s tough to go wrong with either. The Vaya’s frame, built from Salsa’s proprietary “Classico” steel tubing, is an example of how well the company understands how to make a great riding steel frame. Smooth is the characteristic defines the Vaya’s ride over choppy roads and the frame and fork’s stability in challenging conditions inspires confidence at all times. The long fork offset, 71.5 degree headtube angle (on my 57cm frame) and low bottom bracket (75mm drop) all contribute to the stability and solid handling of the Vaya. This is a bike you can literally ride with no hands on choppy roads!
Kevin Wilson snapped this photo of me at the first checkpoint of this year's TransIowa v.6 event. Though completely covered in mud, my Vaya didn't skip a beat. The 2x9 Shimano drivetrain and Salsa chainrings shifted cleanly right up to the point when I pulled the plug, about 90 miles in.
Since I received my Vaya as a frameset and built it up from a mixture of new and old parts, my build has no reflection on the “stock” build available from Salsa, so I won’t go into the specifics of the performance of my groupset performance. However, I will call out a few notable new components that I used in my build. First is the new iteration of WTB’s venerable Ti-railed SST saddle. This is my first experience with the newly re-released classic, and it’s every bit as good as the original. For WTB saddle lovers, these are good days. Heck, I say buy two! Keep a spare new in the box, just in case WTB stops making them again.
The Salsa Delgado Cross rims are the perfect choice for the Vaya, and that’s what I laced up for mine. I’ve had the opportunity to try a few different tires on them now and have come to appreciate their strength, simplicity and consistency in build-up. These are good, nice looking rims and they don’t cost an arm and a leg. Very nice…
The Salsa Woodchipper handlebar is quickly becoming a classic among the gravel grinder crowd, and for good reason. Good reach/drop and a nice, wide flare give it great leverage in the drops — perfect for climbing and descending sketchy gravel roads. It’s strong enough for full-on off-road use too, so you can run it on the Fargo too with no worries. Game on!! I love it – especially the 46cm version.
So, in my “perfect world,” would I change anything on the Vaya? That’s a tough question, because I think any changes to improve the bike in one area or another would detract from the bike in a different area. So no, I really wouldn’t change a thing. And from the others I’ve spoken to who own Vayas, the consensus is that it’s a superb riding, excellent handling bicycle, and a great value too. It breaks free from the cyclocross racing bike geometry mold and charts its own course as a true all-road adventure bike. That’s an exciting development for a cyclist like me.
Salsa Country: 2010 Dirty Kanza 200 champion, Corey "Cornbread" Godfrey captures this image of the early lead pack of the race, which contains several riders on Salsa Vaya and La Cruz models. Salsa's experience on the front lines of long-haul gravel grinder events has helped their designers evolve the geometry and features to better meet the needs of riders, making it a highly sought after ride for 2010.
If you’re interested in buying a Vaya in 2010, my advice is to buy it quick. From what I’ve heard from a couple of local Salsa dealers, it doesn’t sound like the supply of 2010 models will hold up through the year, as it’s been a very popular model for Salsa Cycles. Given my experience with the bike, I can’t say I’m surprised.
I received my Vaya through my sponsorship as a 2010 Salsa sponsored rider, but I have not been compensated for my review and the opinions I’ve expressed are solely my own. You can reach me at dirtstories@gmail.com with any comments or follow-up questions.
tagged Vaya, salsa in product test
Vaya, salsa in product test
Reader Comments (20)
Nice post,
I was interested further in your thoughts of the Vaya as compared with the La Cruz. I'm an Orange Pop rider, and in my latest endevours (some technical single track) has left me dreaming of a better cross-mtb frame. The La Cruz begs for speed, in fact I think its handling strengths come from fast riding over uneven territory. In your opinion is the Vaya a better off-road beast, than say the La Cruz?
JP
ahhh...if i read right the reviewer is a salsa sponsored rider...so isn't this a clear conflict of interest for objective reporting?....or did i read incorrectly?
@canali: It is mentioned right off the top that Matt is a Salsa sponsored rider. We didn't try to hide that fact, we highlighted it. If you decide that Matt's viewpoint will be skewed too far in the positive direction in regards to the Vaya, we gave you the opportunity to bail out up front.
As far as "objective reporting" goes, I could make several points, but since space is limited, I will only say that Matt has been in the cycling industry, a Pro rider, and has raced seriously for over 20 years. I feel Matt can be trusted to give our readers a viewpoint that is unique and valuable in regards to this particular bicycle, which since he chose it to use in races says something to me. (He didn't have to use this bike, he wanted to)
But again, we didn't gloss over the fact that Matt is sponsored. We made it a point to make that clear. We feel our reader's are smart enough to come to their own reasoned conclusions as to whether or not Matt's viewpoints are "a clear conflict of interest", "objective reporting", or are maybe some valuable insights into a bicycle they might find interesting.
The e-mail comments I have received on this post suggest the response is overwhelmingly positive. YMMV.
Thanks Guitar Ted -- I understand that for some it's going to be hard to believe that I can maintain a shred of objectivity when I ride as a Salsa sponsored rider/racer, and that's OK. But that said, I do have the perspective of more than 20 years of riding and racing bicycles, more than 10 of which are at the semi-professional level, so I've ridden a lot of different bikes, from a lot of different builders. So I know what I like, and I know what works. And I also have the perspective to know how a Vaya, for example, compares to a La Cruz when riding off road, because I've owned both bikes.
So JP, to answer your question (and sorry it took me so long to do so), the Vaya is by no means a "29er", but is a somewhat better bike than the La Cruz for off-road forays due to its slightly better tire clearance (which can fit a 45c Panaracer Fire 'Cross -- something the La Cruz couldn't do), primarily. You have to watch the low BB a little bit off road, but it's not too bad. I suppose some will think the La Cruz was better off-road in that respect (it had a slightly higher BB). I've heard some guys jokingly refer to the Vaya as a "Fargo lite" and it definitely can handle some rough stuff. But that said, if it's truly rough, I'll take my Fargo out 10 times out of 10.
Good luck,
MG
Matt (& the Cyclist) – Thanks for your July Vaya review article. I found it very helpful as I am seriously considering purchasing a Vaya in 2011. In particular, I am curious if you have had an opportunity to test the new Vaya Ti frame, and/or your thoughts about a Ti Vaya? I’m a bit of a retro-grouch and love steel, and have always thought Ti to be the ultimate “steel” – so I am intrigued with the option of owning a Ti Vaya, paired with a carbon fork...?!
Thanks / Rick in CO
Rick:
The titanium version of the Vaya just introduced a few months back is still in production yet, (as far as we know), and so, no one has ridden it yet to give you any feedback.
My best educated guess is that it will ride just that little bit nicer/smoother than the steel version does. Hopefully, we'll get our shot at riding one to let you and everyone else know what we think.
Thanks GT - My fear is the price for a Ti Vaya frameset may be cost prohibitive for many, myself included...but since 'steel is (still) real', no worries!
Sorry for the delayed reply. As GT mentioned, I haven't ridden the Ti Vaya at all, so I can't comment directly on it's ride, however, I do own both a Ti La Cruz and a Ti El Mariachi, so I can say confidently that the Vaya will be an ultra-smooth ride. And given the awesome smoothness of the steel Vaya, that's an intoxicating proposition. It could be the best riding gravel bike ever!
Hi, thanks for the review of the vaya. There's a self supported race in May that covers 400 miles of which 90 is on rails to trails. The Vaya seems like a good choice for that type of event. While I understand it's not a all out road bike, how's it speed on the roads? Decent speed? The event does get some full on road bikes. They struggle on the limestone section, but have 300 miles to make up what was lost. Can the vaya hold it's own on the road? Thanks.
Darren
Philadelphia, PA
@Darren: Well, when you are talking about road bikes vs the Vaya in pure racing on pavement, there is going to be a distinct advantage to the road bikes on weight alone. That said, I've seen guys school a road pack while riding a mtb, so it always comes down to the motor, (ie: the rider). Will you be at a disadvantage on pavement vs road racing machines if you pick the Vaya? Technically, yes, you would, but the intangibles I can not account for.
Does anyone know if the Vaya will accept an eccentric bottom bracket?
The Vaya does not accept a traditional EBB. It has a standard sized European bottom bracket shell.
@Houston Mike, the Vaya is not designed for an eccentric bottom bracket. To run it as a singlespeed, you'll need to add some sort of external chain tensioning device.
@Houston Mike, @MG: The best bet to single speed a Vaya is a White Industries ENO rear hub. They are a little pricey but they're also easily the most efficient, lowest maintenance, highest quality way to go about it. Plus they're puuurrrrtttyyy! ;)
After reading the reviews, they all seem to treat the Vaya as a long distance racer. No one I know does that. I bought mine as an off-road capable tourer, with racks and panniers, and stuff. I can tell you this, with that type of set up the Vaya is ideal! A touring bike with bigger tires and disc brakes is the perfect rails to trails touring ride. There is no way I could keep up with a good cyclocross bike though--it's just too heavy. I say if you want speed, think cyclocross, but if you want an off road capable touring bike that can get it done, think Vaya. I don't really know where the Fargo fits in that conversation, but I can't imagine using a Fargo for anything other than rougher off road touring, or as a rigid 29'er for those applications where suspensions just add extra weight.
ArkyKenny - I couldn't agree with you more. I too bought my 2011 steel Vaya to be my go-anywhere on/off road tourer. You're right in that the Vaya is heavy - and for good reason - full load touring. It was never meant to compete with CX-er's. The way I looked at the Vaya vs. Fargo decision (and I went back & forth many times before I chose) was the Vaya leans road and the Fargo leans off-road (and I believe this year the Fargo geometry was revised to accept a suspension fork and came with a suspension-corrected hard-nose fork). So actually, the Fargo might literally be the better all-around, go-anywhere, do-anything bike if you had to only own one bike. Even though a bit slower than the Vaya on-road, the Fargo could be tire-ed to road tour. It has better single-track capability - you can run any width tire you would ever want to, for any type of terrain, with or without front suspension. I lean road so I chose the Vaya and have decked it out in full-tour mode - Ultegra STI triple group, two sets of wheels for on or off road riding, Planet Bike fenders, and Salsa front & rear racks. Next is luggage - then time to tour! Incidentally, and although hefty, the Vaya is amazingly comfortable and fun to ride as a road bike, stripped of all the touring accessories - a very versatile bike indeed. If I HAD to choose only one bike, it would probably be a Fargo - but the Vaya would be a close second. Since I have a dedicated mountain bike that I doubt I'll ever sell (Niner MCR), the Vaya made more sense for me - and if I sold my trusty, old dedicated road bike I'd just ride the Vaya and be road-happy! SOME-day (in my dreams) I hope to own a Ti Vaya, or Fargo...or Vaya...?!?
Rick in CO
These bike reviews always show you the bike and end up talking about the components. I don't get it. The Salsa Vaya is about the frame--not it's parts. This is a great Cro-Mo frame that can take big tires and has a disc brake--that combo gives the Vaya the versatility to do anything you want to with it. I generally like the parts that come with it. If you don't like them, that is what your local bike shop or eBay is for. Ideally, it is a light tourer. I took the big 700c x40's off and put on some 700c x 32's touring tires on, plus some racks, and it's AWESOME!. Disc brakes are the way to go for a heavy touring bike, period! (those stock 40's are just too big for my type of riding--but Im' keeping them for ???). I can also take the racks off and use it for riding/training and use it as a road bike that I'm not afraid to hit potholes and dead critters with without worring about flats and ruining a $600 set of wheels. You could also put 29er tires on. And because it has a disc, you can even put 26 inch tires on it:: I have some 26 x 1.5" slicks that I put on, to do a 250 mile rails to trails ride--the 26's leave me room for some fenders with those 1.5's, gives me a better stand-over height, it puts me on the same tire size as my buddies on mountain bikes, and gives me the option of buying tubes or tires at Wal-Mart if I'm in the middle of nowhere. You could also use this as a cyclocross-ish bike, a commuter, a path bike, a cruiser, or anything else. So again, the Vaya is about the frame that uses disc brakes, and that frame gives you versatility and a drop bar. So, since I am preacthin on the frame, let me say one thing about the components: The cowbell drop bars are good, but I wish I could trade them for the woodchipper bars on the Fargo: I ride on the hoods, so the woodchippers wouldn't bend me over as much. We'll see if II track some of those down some where. Get a Vaya, or get 5 other bikes. Nice job Salsa!
Weeelllll...that depends on the racing being done. If you keep reading reviews where people talk about racing the Vaya, chances are because they are racing it. I happen to know a few myself.
For ultra distance gravel races it's one of the better weapons of choice out there. It runs fatter tires, has full disc brakes, absorbs washboard/gravel/etc bumps very well and has a very comfortable seating position. 'cross bikes can do those types of races, sure. But there is a reason bikes like the Vaya are being chosen more and more often over cyclocross bikes. As an added bonus, the following weekend you can load it up and go bikepacking with it, just like you said!
But, hey, everyone has their preferences. I just wanted to point out that lots of people choose these bikes for just that, is all. I'm one. A Vaya will be my 2012 DK200 mount.
Kenny, just because you don't see people racing Vayas doesn't mean it isn't happening. At one point during the 2010 Dirty Kanza 200 gravel grinder, I looked around me, and five of the six riders in my immediate presence were Vaya-mounted, as was I. That's pretty crazy to have six of one bike model out on a gravel road in the middle of nowhere, even during a race! And that was during the bike's first year of production...
But you brought up a good point about the frame's flexibility that perhaps I didn't highlight enough in my initial review. To wit, today, my Vaya sports SKS fenders, 46cm Woodchippers, light mounts on both fork blades... It's in full-on winter commuter mode.
Oh, I have to disagree on running 32s on the Vaya though. I like it much better with larger tires, in the 38-40c range. Anything smaller makes the bike feel unnecessarily harsh and limiting of the bicycle's all-around abilities. One of the Vaya's greatest virtues is its ability to turn off a paved road and confidently ride off onto any road you choose. On the roads I choose, that requires real tires.
At the Dirty Kanza this year, I'll either be astride my Vaya, or my Ti Salsa BWNN. We'll see what I choose closer to race day...
Happy Holidays!
MG
MG, your response to my comments is what I'm talking about: Namely, the Vaya is a wonderful Jack-of-all-trades. You think it's a racer, and I think it's a tourer. You think it needs 700c x 40's for dirt, and I think it needs 700c x 32's for the rough chip and seal roads I ride on. Our discussion reminds me of the 3 blind men holding on to different parts of an elephant and doing their best to describe the elephant--the one holding on to the leg says "Elephants are like trees", the one holding onto the ear says "Elepahants are like big blankets", and the one holding onto the trunk says "Elephants are like big muscular vaccum hoses". They are all, at least partially, correct.. They all would also do well to understand that their vantage point gives them a limited perspective. And it also illustrates the beauty of the Vaya: The Vaya can largely become what you want it to be. Other bikes don't give you the options the Vaya does. I wish it weighed 21#, but otherwise, I'm happy with the versatility it gives me. Glad to hear you like yours too. And that it what I'm trying to convey to potential buyers---make it what you want to make into, because you can. I can configure mine 3 ways so far. Sounds like you do some of that too. Ride on!